Curse

MegaVolti · Nov 13, 2008, 01:13 PM // 13:13

This topic got me thinking: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10316154

I'm talking about hard mode elite missions here. No tank'n'spank but balanced play. In a hard mode elite mission without a tank, every character has to be used to its full potential. There are a lot of "fun" builds that work in normal mode or for vanquishing, but what is really the best each class can do?

Warrior:
I think warriors are most useful for their knockdown. It lasts longer then for any other class and it's available often.

Dervish:
Combining good melee damage with good survivability. However, for elite missions I don't see that much of an advantage over other classes. Maybe [[Avatar of Melandu] for missions with many conditions ...
The most useful thing a Dervish can da would be Orders support (with [[Arcane Zeal]) - but a Necromancer can also do that (and offers BiP on top of it).

Assassin:
Hands down the best damage dealer in the game. Moebius strike and Death Blossom are painful to any enemy. If necessary the Assassin can go with a little less damage but a lot more survivability and use [[Flashing Blades].

Ranger:
Really hard to say. Splinter/Barrage is good for damage, but there is actually no need to play that on a Ranger. Ritualists (with their own lvl16 Splinter Weapon) or even Assassins (getting the Weapon from a Ritualist) are just as good. BHA shutdown is nice but hardly ever needed in elite missions. I'm a little lost here ... what is it a Ranger does best? I'd go with an "Imbaranger" here, using [[Volley] and that +adrenalin spirit to keep SY up.

Paragon:
The Imbagon of cause. Permanent SY is just impossible to beat. If there is more then one: Paraways are well known, not much to say here.

Necromancer:
Since we are talking about how to be most useful in a team in an elite mission, I'd go with [[Blood is Power] and Orders support.

Elementalist:
The damage in hard mode is not that good (at least compared to the Moebius Assassin). Using [[Ether Renewal] to replace a Monk, either as Prot-spammer or with [[Infuse Health]. Another possibility would be knockdown + wards using earth magic.

Ritualist:
Some Resto / Channel hybrid, giving [[Splinter Weapon] to the physicals and healing a little bit. However, I'm not really sure why to pick a Ritu here. A Necromancer could do the same and have a lot more mana. I don't really see any situation were a Ritualist would be better then the N/Rt.

Mesmer:
Damage and interrupt. Second best damage dealer, only beaten by the Assassin - which doesn't offer interrupts on the same scale as a Mesmer does.

Monk:
Duh. Healing and protecting.

Is that how you would use each class in a hard mode elite mission? What to do about the Dervish, Ranger and Ritualist?

SkekSister · Nov 13, 2008, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Dervish - Wounding strike spam

Deep wound covered with bleeding available every 5 seconds.

Bong Bro Zac · Nov 13, 2008, 03:13 PM // 15:13

warrior-pressure, DW, KD, SY, and can still be used to tank

dervish- most underrated proffession for HM PvE imo... my derv does +200 pbaoe before i even start attacking then im still able to keep up a 33%ias and spam attack skills

assassin- all i find sins good for is perma and DPS which is higher than the other melee proffessions just due to criticals

ranger- imo rangers are the utility proffession that can do it all good but nothin the best. their spirits and interupts are useful and splinter barrage can be a good source of DPS in large mobs.. and im a fan of pets

necromancer- agree with OP... MM in some areas and i love SS

elementalist- nuking of course... snares and wards are ftw also

Mesmer- shutdown and VoR is a great pve skill now... imo necros or eles make better cryers than mesmers

MegaVolti · Nov 13, 2008, 03:36 PM // 15:36

About the Dervish:
[[Wounding Strike] doesn't count imho. A Crit Scythe Assassin can spam it just like a Dervish and the Assassin will do a lot more damage with all the critical strikes. And the Assassin has a better IAS skill ([[Critical Agility]) as well as a superior defense ([[Critical Defenses]).

The only things a Dervish can do better then any other profession are in the Mysticism line. Which isn't all that strong ... Orders support and Melandru's (or maybe Dwayna's) Avatar, I don't really see much more that would be useful in HM.

romeus petrus · Nov 13, 2008, 03:41 PM // 15:41

I agree that rangers are currently a mediocre class in elite PvE. Their main advantage is survivability and and flexibility. As mentioned they do a lot of stuff reasonably well, but they don't do anything exceptionally well other than traps; which are rarely used these days in elites.

SkekSister · Nov 13, 2008, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

About the Dervish:
[[Wounding Strike] doesn't count imho. A Crit Scythe Assassin can spam it just like a Dervish and the Assassin will do a lot more damage with all the critical strikes. And the Assassin has a better IAS skill ([[Critical Agility]) as well as a superior defense ([[Critical Defenses]).

The only things a Dervish can do better then any other profession are in the Mysticism line. Which isn't all that strong ... Orders support and Melandru's (or maybe Dwayna's) Avatar, I don't really see much more that would be useful in HM.

May well be the case, not playing Sins I don't know. However assuming you are correct, that's a dead good argument for nerfing Sins or restricting the usage of a scythe to Dervs. Sins shouldn't be able to take the strongest features of another class and outdo them at using it.

nvmu · Nov 13, 2008, 03:49 PM // 15:49

echo ss necros who can maintain do alot more dps vs groups than you sin ever could

Shayne Hawke · Nov 13, 2008, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Dervish, Ranger, and Ritualist seem to be more powerful characters in PvP than PvE, just at a glance. As far as elite missions go, a Dervish might be able to replace the role of a Warrior in some cases. Otherwise, all they get are bitch roles: Dervish plays orders, Ranger and Ritualist play either Splinter-Barrage or Spirit Spam.

btw, those roles are subpar at best for most areas.

SkekSister · Nov 13, 2008, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles got banned lololo

If you know absolutley nothing about necromancers, could you please not post in this thread.

nvmu- echo ss necros who can maintain do alot more dps vs groups than you sin ever could

I heard that when you introduce mass aoe into a mob it scatter. OH YEAH thats because it does, good luck with all that high damage you were talking about. Also, 45e just to actually cast the hex? unless your doing the uw with a 55 dont make me lol.

necromancer- agree with OP... MM in some areas and i love SS

LOL, order's are all you and the OP could come up with? honestly do you know so little? 'mm is good in some areas' unless your using a hero minion bomber minions are RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing awful. They die after taking the smallest beating, if your running to your next mob they'll gladly waste all your healers energy for you PLUS they do crappy damage. Not my definition of gud. Also read what i just said about SS being fail.

And orders. wow. Orders are as you can probably guess, awful. Lets sac health so everyone else can do 40 extra damage yeyyyyyyyyyyyy. I'll admit that they can be useful in specialised groups, solong as they have alot of other party wide benefits, but really you shouldnt ever touch them.

BiP, again disgraceful. Plus if your monks so terrible at emanagement he needs 8 extra pips of energy regen theres something wrong. The ONLY time BiP is useful is like, when your using a prot monk hero in the deep or something. cos we all know whats gonna happen to his energy. Plus using BiP means speccing into blood, which is a disgraceful attribute line.

And as for the dude that just called mesmers the second best damage dealers below assassins. Please get your numbers right. Nothing more said.

Also lol@ the dude who said every other class is better than mesmer at crying.

Easy to criticise and WallOfText troll but can you actually add anything useful to the thread?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles got banned lololo

Also im too goddamn dumb to figure out the quote feature so you'll have to try and remember who the hell said what.

Fixed that for you.

nvmu · Nov 13, 2008, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles got banned lololo

If you know absolutley nothing about necromancers, could you please not post in this thread.

I heard that when you introduce mass aoe into a mob it scatter. OH YEAH thats because it does, good luck with all that high damage you were talking about. Also, 45e just to actually cast the hex? unless your doing the uw with a 55 dont make me lol.

Ok your absoultly right about me not knowing anything about necros. My main is only a necro with close to 19 mil exp, 17mil of which has nothing to do with fff. And for energy, 12 sr, and you bring signet of lost souls, and it works fine vanquishing h/h useing 2 n/rt healers and 1 mm, I use mm not a minion bomber, along with ele hero, and the other 3, pretty much put in w/e you want. Hard for you to tell me echo ss fails when I know for a fact it works.

-Lotus- · Nov 13, 2008, 04:54 PM // 16:54

warrior- frontilne pressure lower than derv/sin, less reliable SY spam then a para
monk- WoH hybrids are still the best general backline healer
ranger- some physical pressure, interrupts... meh
mesmer- totally inferior to other caster professions
ele- high energy pool and elites like ER = amazing utility
Necro- the jack-of-all-trades, amazing healer, armor-ignoring damage dealer, and support
Rit- Necros are better Rits than Rits are
Sin- super melee pressure, yay
derv- heavy physical pressure, some utility, able to spam SY
Para- perma SY, some physical pressure

Capua · Nov 13, 2008, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkekSister

Easy to criticise and WallOfText troll but can you actually add anything useful to the thread?

Fixed that for you.

Thread winner.

SkekSister · Nov 13, 2008, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles got banned lololo

I also like the way you contributed a hell of a lot to this thread. I mean stating what wounding strike does and what its recharge time is.

Concise and to the point yes. Still more than you offered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles got banned lololo

Jesus christ are you god?

Well taken literally he is, well kind of if you believe that stuff. It's complicated. You probably wouldn't understand.

Am guessing our bans are in the post by now, that or Godwin's law is gonna kick in after a few more posts/flames.

Nodakim · Nov 13, 2008, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles got banned lololo

If you know absolutley nothing about necromancers, could you please not post in this thread.

nvmu- echo ss necros who can maintain do alot more dps vs groups than you sin ever could

I heard that when you introduce mass aoe into a mob it scatter. OH YEAH thats because it does, good luck with all that high damage you were talking about. Also, 45e just to actually cast the hex? unless your doing the uw with a 55 dont make me lol.

Just because you dont know how to play a necro doesnt mean a ss necro sucks in HM elite missions...

Shadowmere · Nov 13, 2008, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by SkekSister

May well be the case, not playing Sins I don't know. However assuming you are correct, that's a dead good argument for nerfing Sins or restricting the usage of a scythe to Dervs. Sins shouldn't be able to take the strongest features of another class and outdo them at using it.

That's not really a good point for anything, remember it's PvE we're talking about here, skill balance dosen't really come into play when we've got PvE only skills flying about. In PvP a scythesin can deal some big numbers yes but it lacks the IaS that makes it so powerful in PvE, the only derv IaS that I'm aware of is in mysticism and the only non pve only sin IaS only works with daggers so really the derv is going to be more competent in dealing damage with the scythe in pvp.

Besides in PvE assassins can use ANY martial weapon as good if not better than their native class thanks to critical strikes, [critical agility] & [Way of the master]. The only reason scythe-sins are more popular than any other weapon sin is because the scythe simply has higher damage and better attack skills ([wounding strike] is amazing no matter what class is using it.)

As for the argument about SS in HM, yes it's AoE it can make mobs scatter, but remember SS is a Hex, it's not like an ele AoE that just goes away after the mob runs out of it for a few seconds. SS sticks to the enemies, the moment they stop and go to activate some skills or attack the damage will come right back. Echo SS is AoE they can't run from, which makes it viable no matter the difficulty setting.

And rits, yeah...I love em to death but in higher end areas the only thing they really have going for em is their class specific runes, their channeling/resto skills will be a fair bit more potent than the necro's. And yes you lose the soul reaping energy with the rit but it's not like rits ever had a problem with energy anyways. They just need some serious reworking of their primary attribute and some buffs to spirits.

Richardt · Nov 13, 2008, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

Warrior:
I think warriors are most useful for their knockdown. It lasts longer then for any other class and it's available often.

Lets not forget things like being able to take damage and deal it right back. KD's are all well and good, but a warrior can and will do other things than KDs. And the only reason why it's longer is that warriors get access to Stonefist insignias.

Quote:

Dervish:
Combining good melee damage with good survivability. However, for elite missions I don't see that much of an advantage over other classes. Maybe [[Avatar of Melandru] for missions with many conditions ...
The most useful thing a Dervish can da would be Orders support (with [[Arcane Zeal]) - but a Necromancer can also do that (and offers BiP on top of it).

It is obvious you don't know much about dervishes. You are aware that scythes are the most broken weapon in the game? And combine that with [[aura of holy might] and suddenly you have a frontliner capable of dealing tons of damage-my dervish buddy is able to CONSISTANTLY hit for ~150 damage. Furthermore, [[avatar of melandru] is only useful in a handful of cases-just focusing on avatars here-[[avatar of lyssa] is able to take moderate damage from "Damn that's alot!" to "HAHA instadeath!". Throw in things like [[great dwarf weapon] or [[splinter weapon] and you won't ever have to worry about an enemy mob again.

Quote:

Assassin:
Hands down the best damage dealer in the game. Moebius strike and Death Blossom are painful to any enemy. If necessary the Assassin can go with a little less damage but a lot more survivability and use [[Flashing Blades].

Not the best damage dealer-my vote would go for the dervish for reasons I gave above. But by using [[death blossom] they can achieve a very nice armor ignoring AoE damage. However, from personnal experiece (in both NM&HM and supported by other sins in my guild) [[moebius strike] is difficult to create a DB spam as 90% of the time your enemy is dead by the time you hit Moebius. My guild's chief sin uses [[flashing blades] and has frontline for us in a variety of locales and done very well.

Quote:

Ranger:
Really hard to say. Splinter/Barrage is good for damage, but there is actually no need to play that on a Ranger. Ritualists (with their own lvl16 Splinter Weapon) or even Assassins (getting the Weapon from a Ritualist) are just as good. BHA shutdown is nice but hardly ever needed in elite missions. I'm a little lost here ... what is it a Ranger does best? I'd go with an "Imbaranger" here, using [[Volley] and that +adrenalin spirit to keep SY up.

Seriously...learn how to use your classes. Rangers are actually more flexible than you give them credit for. [[broad head arrow] and [[barrage] are nice and all, but consider [[prepared shot]-in PvE you can use this to effectively spam skills such [[sundering attack] for a nice DPS. And lets not forget [[distracting shot], which in the hands of a good ranger can effectively shut down an enemy.

Quote:

Paragon:
The Imbagon of cause. Permanent SY is just impossible to beat. If there is more then one: Paraways are well known, not much to say here.

Lets not forget unstrippable party support, ranged DPS and they're the only class that can cause ranged deep wound. There's more to a paragon than playing Imba people.

Quote:

Necromancer:
Since we are talking about how to be most useful in a team in an elite mission, I'd go with [[Blood is Power] and Orders support.

Yeah....BiP isn't much. If we ever need extra energy we normally pack [[blood ritual]-if your casters need more than +7 energy regen, then they need to learn energy management. In fact, they shouldn't need more than +4 (unless you're like me and push your casters hard and fast

). This frees up your elite skill for more devastating skills like [[discord]. And they have access to [[enfeebling blood]-massive AoE weakness is a good thing.

Quote:

Elementalist:
The damage in hard mode is not that good (at least compared to the Moebius Assassin). Using [[Ether Renewal] to replace a Monk, either as Prot-spammer or with [[Infuse Health]. Another possibility would be knockdown + wards using earth magic.

Lets see...eles have some very nice AoE elites that are very spiffy. Things like [[unsteady ground], [[sandstorm] and [[savannah heat] are very very nice. Lets not forget the ability to blind spam with Air Magic!

Quote:

Ritualist:
Some Resto / Channel hybrid, giving [[Splinter Weapon] to the physicals and healing a little bit. However, I'm not really sure why to pick a Ritu here. A Necromancer could do the same and have a lot more mana. I don't really see any situation were a Ritualist would be better then the N/Rt.

Rits have this nice primary attribute that makes weapon spells last longer. A rit spamming [[great dwarf weapon] is a powerful force. And lets not forget throwing things like [[ancestor's rage] onto your frontline for some nice AoE. We've often employed a resto Rit in several HM dungeons and have done very very well for ourselves.

Quote:

Mesmer:
Damage and interrupt. Second best damage dealer, only beaten by the Assassin - which doesn't offer interrupts on the same scale as a Mesmer does.

Lets not forget how well mesmers are able to shut down large mobs at once-[[visions of regret] is a powerful elite since it got buffed.

Quote:

Monk:
Duh. Healing and protecting.

Huzzah you got something right.

Quote:

Is that how you would use each class in a hard mode elite mission? What to do about the Dervish, Ranger and Ritualist?

I wouldn't use each class as you have outlined. Seems that you have a very limited grasp of each class-and I'm not saying that to sound like an elitist jerk. Learning what each class can and can't do is the best way to learn how to do an elite area or HM mission/dungeon.

X Cytherea X · Nov 13, 2008, 08:32 PM // 20:32

there you have it folks, in pve, assassins are gods. it's unanimous, they are the best TANKERS and AOE SPAMMERS.

what's the definition of the word "assassin" again? lol. oh yeah. this is guild wars.

Richardt · Nov 13, 2008, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

it's unanimous, they are the best TANKERS and AOE SPAMMERS.

Nobody made the claim they are best tankers, and while they certianly are good at AoE spamming, I wouldn't claim that they're the best.

Rhamia Darigaz · Nov 13, 2008, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by MegaVolti

Assassin:
arguably one of the best damage dealers in pve.

fixed. when you play pvp the volley of dshots you'll be taking when you try to use your combo will c-cc-ombro beaker you.

MegaVolti · Nov 14, 2008, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richardt

It is obvious you don't know much about dervishes. You are aware that scythes are the most broken weapon in the game? And combine that with [[aura of holy might] and suddenly you have a frontliner capable of dealing tons of damage-my dervish buddy is able to CONSISTANTLY hit for ~150 damage. Furthermore, [[avatar of melandru] is only useful in a handful of cases-just focusing on avatars here-[[avatar of lyssa] is able to take moderate damage from "Damn that's alot!" to "HAHA instadeath!". Throw in things like [[great dwarf weapon] or [[splinter weapon] and you won't ever have to worry about an enemy mob again.

That's why I wrote something about Scythe Assassins a few posts above yours. If you dislike Moebius + Blossom, the Assassin will still do a lot more damage then the Dervish ever could with a Scythe + critical strikes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz

fixed. when you play pvp the volley of dshots you'll be taking when you try to use your combo will c-cc-ombro beaker you.

Did I mention PvE elite areas in the initial post? Not talking about PvP here